Posts by Death to the Pixies

64

The other sheep: Looking for an apologist to offer an explanation

by IP_SEC in

a verse constantly plucked from context by witnesses is john 10:16. they use it to prove that there are two classes of christian.. and i have other sheep i have other sheep, which are not of this fold: those also i must bring and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.. the this fold say witnesses are anointed christians and the other sheep are christians with an earthly hope.. read the text carefully and in context, and i challenge anyone to be able to prove that.. in chapter 9 jesus heals a man born blind.

this infuriates the pharisees who then attack the healed man and threaten him with being expelled from the synagogue.

the man will not recant and is thrown out.. jesus finds him and asks him to be his follower.

Death to the Pixies

My view is a distinction between the Priests and Kings, and between the Other Sheep, so is the WTs. When the Wt directs us to the fact that Jesus was talking to "His people" when discussing such verses as John 1:12,13 and John 3 (as they do in the Reasoning Book) it becomes clearer. They do not discuss this verse in the time period of Jesus' words, because there is no need too, we are post-Cornelius.

Hell-Rider: You didn't think I was going to take you seriously after using the word "twat" did you! (insert horizontal smilie here)

Nark:More exactly: two groups of distinct origin (ek). Two before, one after

Reply: Two folds who become one flock. They are still two folds. As far as what the "one" is, is not defined as "anointed Christians". I say they are not, because the NC was for Israel. They could simply become Christians with a different function and still a oneness exists.

Nark:An equally quick glance at 11:51-2 proves this is not the case: "being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus was about to die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but to gather into one (= 10:16) the dispersed children of God." The Jewish "nation" (ethnos) includes the diaspora as well as the Palestinian Jews. The other children of God are Gentiles -- such as the "Greeks" in 12:20ff.

Reply: Keep glancing :>) Vs. 48-50 show who the "ethnos" is, it is not the Jewish race as a whole, but rather what the Romans will take away. Ethnos does not always specifically refer to race. Caiaphas= buddy of Romans, Jesus=King means Romans fight with the nation .Not only them of that nation but any Jew anywhere would become a threat to fight with the Romans.. I will let the fact that commentators are split (Clark, Interpreters Bible Commentary) quell this.

Plus, in other Johanine expressions, he uses similiar language of Jews abroad.

64

The other sheep: Looking for an apologist to offer an explanation

by IP_SEC in

a verse constantly plucked from context by witnesses is john 10:16. they use it to prove that there are two classes of christian.. and i have other sheep i have other sheep, which are not of this fold: those also i must bring and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.. the this fold say witnesses are anointed christians and the other sheep are christians with an earthly hope.. read the text carefully and in context, and i challenge anyone to be able to prove that.. in chapter 9 jesus heals a man born blind.

this infuriates the pharisees who then attack the healed man and threaten him with being expelled from the synagogue.

the man will not recant and is thrown out.. jesus finds him and asks him to be his follower.

Death to the Pixies

Nark, I wanted to make sure my point got across or was understood, before I continued with any other objection.

Nark:Second, such a "secondary application" would still run contrary to the logic of the text which I pointed out earlier (two origins, one destination).

Reply: Well, the verse in question (John 10:16) has a oneness amongst two groups, but why do you presume it is as "anointed Christians", Because of Jon 11:51,52? I take that as the dispersed **JEWS** amongst the Greeks. A quick glance at John 7:35 brings this home.

"Then the Jews said among themselves, "Where is this One about to be going that we will not find Him? He is not about to be going to the Dispersion [i.e. the scattered Jews among the Greeks] and to be teaching the Greeks, is He?" (Youngs Literal John 7:35)

Nark:12:20ff: Now among those who went up to worship at the festival were some Greeks. They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and said to him, "Sir, we wish to see Jesus." Philip went and told Andrew; then Andrew and Philip went and told Jesus. Jesus answered them, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. (...) And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. He said this to indicate the kind of death he was to die. "

Reply: I do not see my contention being harmed here, do you? All people regardless of their being recivers of the NC, or else will be drawn to Jesus into a oneness of faith. WT theology isn't challenged here IMO.

I see value in coming to any Gospel with an understanding of *who* Jesus came to give the New Covenent.

Thanks for the brevity,

Regards.

64

The other sheep: Looking for an apologist to offer an explanation

by IP_SEC in

a verse constantly plucked from context by witnesses is john 10:16. they use it to prove that there are two classes of christian.. and i have other sheep i have other sheep, which are not of this fold: those also i must bring and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.. the this fold say witnesses are anointed christians and the other sheep are christians with an earthly hope.. read the text carefully and in context, and i challenge anyone to be able to prove that.. in chapter 9 jesus heals a man born blind.

this infuriates the pharisees who then attack the healed man and threaten him with being expelled from the synagogue.

the man will not recant and is thrown out.. jesus finds him and asks him to be his follower.

Death to the Pixies

Making 10:1-15 about spiritual jews voids and 16 about spiritual gentiles voids everything jesus said about the Pharisees since the Pharisees have never been hired men over them. Creating a literal and figurative interpretation is a long stretch, no its a square peg in a round hole.

Reply: Well since I am stating Jesus was talking of Literal Jews, I fail to see your objection. Maybe it will help you if you view it as simply "Israel" and "Non Israel". Then understand what hapened to Israel later in Pauls discourses. We now interpret it in light of what happened, as being "Spiritual Israel". They fulfilled Jesus words. .

Making 10:1-15 about spiritual jews voids and 16 about spiritual gentiles voids everything jesus said about the Pharisees since the Pharisees have never been hired men over them. Creating a literal and figurative interpretation is a long stretch, no its a square peg in a round hole.
.

64

The other sheep: Looking for an apologist to offer an explanation

by IP_SEC in

a verse constantly plucked from context by witnesses is john 10:16. they use it to prove that there are two classes of christian.. and i have other sheep i have other sheep, which are not of this fold: those also i must bring and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.. the this fold say witnesses are anointed christians and the other sheep are christians with an earthly hope.. read the text carefully and in context, and i challenge anyone to be able to prove that.. in chapter 9 jesus heals a man born blind.

this infuriates the pharisees who then attack the healed man and threaten him with being expelled from the synagogue.

the man will not recant and is thrown out.. jesus finds him and asks him to be his follower.

Death to the Pixies

TD"And I have other sheep which are not of this fold;" --Other sheep = Gentiles (By ethnicity) who were to become anointed believers

Reply: No, my contention is that they do not become anointed Christians. Some Gentiles did only to reach the number of Israel, but they are counted as Israel.

TD:"and they will become one flock, one shepherd." --One flock = The "Little flock

Reply: No, Israel is alone the Little flock. Gentiles had to be counted as Israel until the spiritual nation of Kings/priests was filled, after that moment the gathering of the other sheep takes place.

TD:But pretty much at the same moment this happened, the application was spiritualized so that:

"And I have other sheep which are not of this fold;" --Other sheep = Spiritual Gentiles who were to become non-anointed believers

Reply: Well, not pretty much at the same moment. After MAtthew 21:43.

TD:"and they will become one flock, one shepherd." --One flock = "One" in unity. Physically, two classes with two destinations

Reply: Yes, I am saying that. I am saying Jews had a different function, a priestly function, which was to rule with Christ over the World in General.

If I've got that right, then I'd pretty much echo Narkissos in that I doubt if the JW's have ever taught this. But even if that weren't the case, I have a hard time seeing any congruency between the "physical" and "spiritual" explanations.

REply: Why not? And I read thru GaryBs Wt reference, it is in-line with what I am saying.

I think this is most apparent right at the fulcrum of the seesaw (i.e. Cornelius) where from the standpoint of the speaker, he's one of the "Other sheep," but from the standpoint of the Invisible Interpreter, he's one of the "Little Flock." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Reply: Corneilus according to Jesus' message was of the Other sheep, not anointed. Cornuelis according to Post Israel's failure and Pauls inclusion, is allowed to be counted as Israel. Again, I re-iterate, Jesus says nothing about including Gentiles in with Israel. Paul does, becasue of the events that happened.

Thanks guys.

64

The other sheep: Looking for an apologist to offer an explanation

by IP_SEC in

a verse constantly plucked from context by witnesses is john 10:16. they use it to prove that there are two classes of christian.. and i have other sheep i have other sheep, which are not of this fold: those also i must bring and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.. the this fold say witnesses are anointed christians and the other sheep are christians with an earthly hope.. read the text carefully and in context, and i challenge anyone to be able to prove that.. in chapter 9 jesus heals a man born blind.

this infuriates the pharisees who then attack the healed man and threaten him with being expelled from the synagogue.

the man will not recant and is thrown out.. jesus finds him and asks him to be his follower.

Death to the Pixies

IP:Pixie, this argument has nothing to do with roles of Jews and Gentiles, thats another debate all together.

If the Jews are the flock and Gentiles are the other sheep how could that not damage the "other sheep" teaching of the witnesses. To the witnesses the flock are spiritual jews and the other sheep are not. If I understand what you are saying, all Christians are spiritual Jews.

This decimates the teaching of JWs>>>>

Reply: It doesn't, when you understand the argument properly. I can understand the confusion. I have discussed this 2-3 times with people (once I believe with Simon the owner here over on Bnet) and it took them a bit to understand too.

I do not believe as you say "All Christians are spiritual Jews" nor have I said as much. Sorry for the confusion.

IP: also have trouble understanding how the "when" of the matter could have any bearing. It doesnt matter if the other sheep started being gathered under the one shepherd yesterday. It is the "who" that matters.

Reply: Since we are dealing with understanding Jesus' words with a spiritual fulfillment the "When" is crucial. Only Post-Cornelius do Jesus' words apply to Spiritual Jews, at the time of his comments he was talking to his people, the recievers of the NC, the Jews . As far the New Covenent goes, Jesus could care less about the Gentiles. Nowhere does he say anything about there "being no distinction between a Jew and Gentile", that was because his message did have a distinction between Jew and Gentile. Functionally. And it still does, just the criteria to what it takes to be a "jew" or "Other sheep" has changed.

Reading thru my posts I believe I have written enough for the point to be understood. I understand the difficulty and will be as patient as I can be.

Later.

64

The other sheep: Looking for an apologist to offer an explanation

by IP_SEC in

a verse constantly plucked from context by witnesses is john 10:16. they use it to prove that there are two classes of christian.. and i have other sheep i have other sheep, which are not of this fold: those also i must bring and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.. the this fold say witnesses are anointed christians and the other sheep are christians with an earthly hope.. read the text carefully and in context, and i challenge anyone to be able to prove that.. in chapter 9 jesus heals a man born blind.

this infuriates the pharisees who then attack the healed man and threaten him with being expelled from the synagogue.

the man will not recant and is thrown out.. jesus finds him and asks him to be his follower.

Death to the Pixies

<<First, I doubt that since 1935 the WT has ever admitted what you do, namely that the "other sheep" of John 10:16 once referred to the Gentile converts who would eventually become ("anointed") Christians, and that its application to another (non-anointed) class is secondary to this first meaning.>>

Reply:My point is in line with GaryBs' WT quote. I understand this can be confusing, but my point is being missed. I do not believe a Gentile , that is Gentile as in what a Gentile is Pre-Cornelius, is to be anointed. Gentiles become part of Israel AFTER Cornelius, and ONLY because Israel faltered. When Jesus said his words, Israel (fleshly) had not been rejected. I am saying, Post Cornelius, there is a still an Israel/Gentile distinction , it is just not a fleshly distinction. We have a Spiritual Israel that was roughly filled in 1935, and then the other sheep. So the idea of having Gentiles as part of Israel, and Jews part of the Other Sheep is possible.

We are dealing with the time of Jesus' words. At this time he was still making distinction between literal Jews of flesh, who were the recievers of the New Covenent, and Gentiles. Just because Israel BECAME A* spiritual nation does change the fact that Jesus was contrasting Israel and the Gentiles! Just what became Israel changed.

* (not shouting don't know fonts, have not tried to figure them out here)

64

The other sheep: Looking for an apologist to offer an explanation

by IP_SEC in

a verse constantly plucked from context by witnesses is john 10:16. they use it to prove that there are two classes of christian.. and i have other sheep i have other sheep, which are not of this fold: those also i must bring and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.. the this fold say witnesses are anointed christians and the other sheep are christians with an earthly hope.. read the text carefully and in context, and i challenge anyone to be able to prove that.. in chapter 9 jesus heals a man born blind.

this infuriates the pharisees who then attack the healed man and threaten him with being expelled from the synagogue.

the man will not recant and is thrown out.. jesus finds him and asks him to be his follower.

Death to the Pixies

Lemme give you a Yes-No answer to this question:

You asked:Gentile believers wouldn't appear until the conversion of Cornelius. But at the conversion of Cornelius, his entire household was anointed with the spirit, so they weren't really "Other Sheep" at all, they were really part of the "Little Flock?"

Repky: Yes, of the little flock.

64

The other sheep: Looking for an apologist to offer an explanation

by IP_SEC in

a verse constantly plucked from context by witnesses is john 10:16. they use it to prove that there are two classes of christian.. and i have other sheep i have other sheep, which are not of this fold: those also i must bring and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.. the this fold say witnesses are anointed christians and the other sheep are christians with an earthly hope.. read the text carefully and in context, and i challenge anyone to be able to prove that.. in chapter 9 jesus heals a man born blind.

this infuriates the pharisees who then attack the healed man and threaten him with being expelled from the synagogue.

the man will not recant and is thrown out.. jesus finds him and asks him to be his follower.

Death to the Pixies

TD:Let me see if I understand.... As Jesus used the term, "Other Sheep" was a reference to Gentile believers. But at the time Jesus made the remark there weren't any Gentile believers. Gentile believers wouldn't appear until the conversion of Cornelius. But at the conversion of Cornelius, his entire household was anointed with the spirit, so they weren't really "Other Sheep" at all, they were really part of the "Little Flock?"

Reply: I agree there were no Gentile believers, but after Israel was to become adherents to the New Covenent , they would be gathered in together w/Israel, not as Israel, but another fold *not* of thier sort. Jesus' message was for Israel, they were "his people" (JOhn 3) and alone his brothers, the Covenent he came to give was for them soley.

TD:I can think of several JW views that are harmed by this:

One JW view is that there was no Earthly hope from the time of Pentacost clear up until the early 20th century (cf. W82 2/14 p. 30; UW p111) There was only one hope, the heavenly one.

Reply: Why is this harmed?

TD: Closely allied with this view is another, which holds that during the Christian era, the "Other Sheep" are synonymous with the "Great Crowd" which was not identified until the year 1935. (cf. W03 2/14 p. 19; W02 2/1 p. 21; W01 5/15 p.15)

Reply: Why is this harmed? If we take GaryBs' WT quote into consideration, you will see how this ties together with my post..

TD: Taken together, these two JW views do not allow for the existence of Christian "Other Sheep" for almost the entire history of Christianity. --Certainly nothing that Jesus could have been refering to in the present tense.

Reply: A Jew Gentile distinction at this point, according to my post, still makes a Heaven/Earth distinction. I believe the distinction is now spiritual, with the gatehring of the "Gentiles" or "Other sheep" not happening until Israel was filled. I don't think you have grasped my point yet, and that could be my fault. I look forward to clearing this up as time permits.

Again, Context, Jesus' at the time of his words in John 10:16, was talking to natural Jews, whom LATER were rejected. If the Jews did not reject the Messiah, the Gentiles would have never been needed to replace the lopped off branches, or become recievers of the NC. They were only included, as Paul says, because of Israels failure or false step. Romans 11:11 :

"But through their (Fleshly Jews) fall... salvation has come to the Gentiles. " NKJ

"Has come" Only because of Israels rejection has the NC come to the Gentiles.

Acts 13:46: "Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you First. SINCE you Reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles"

Same point, "SINCE you reject...WE NOW turn to the Gentiles"

64

The other sheep: Looking for an apologist to offer an explanation

by IP_SEC in

a verse constantly plucked from context by witnesses is john 10:16. they use it to prove that there are two classes of christian.. and i have other sheep i have other sheep, which are not of this fold: those also i must bring and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.. the this fold say witnesses are anointed christians and the other sheep are christians with an earthly hope.. read the text carefully and in context, and i challenge anyone to be able to prove that.. in chapter 9 jesus heals a man born blind.

this infuriates the pharisees who then attack the healed man and threaten him with being expelled from the synagogue.

the man will not recant and is thrown out.. jesus finds him and asks him to be his follower.

Death to the Pixies

Td,

I am saying the Jew/Gentile distinction mandated a distinction in terms of being a reciever of the Kingdom and ruling as Priests, and being blessed by this arrangement.

If we take the timeline into consideration, The Jews had not yet been rejected as the sole recievers of the New covenent. That talk of Gentiles being let into the NC came later and for a reason.

This does not harm JW theology.

64

The other sheep: Looking for an apologist to offer an explanation

by IP_SEC in

a verse constantly plucked from context by witnesses is john 10:16. they use it to prove that there are two classes of christian.. and i have other sheep i have other sheep, which are not of this fold: those also i must bring and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.. the this fold say witnesses are anointed christians and the other sheep are christians with an earthly hope.. read the text carefully and in context, and i challenge anyone to be able to prove that.. in chapter 9 jesus heals a man born blind.

this infuriates the pharisees who then attack the healed man and threaten him with being expelled from the synagogue.

the man will not recant and is thrown out.. jesus finds him and asks him to be his follower.

Death to the Pixies

Sorry, I do not have a bible handy, so I will try my best to summarize this off the top of my head. Sorry if it sounds incoherent, maybe when I awaken and have more energy I can be more thorough.

IP Sec, . It would help you to keep in mind the timeline involved in Jesus' words at John 10:16. If you do, you will see that such scriptures that speak of "Go to the Lost sheep of Israel only" (paraphrase) only enhance the JW view.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, such as Jeremiah 31:31-34, you will see that the Kingdom was to be given to the Jews, the Seed of Abraham, Israel alone. The "World" was not to be the recievers of this Kingdom, as the "nation of Kings and priests" but were to be blessed by this Seed and Kingdom..

Therefore when Jesus uttered the words at John 10:16, he very well could have been distinguishing between Jews and Gentiles literally. But what did this distinction entail? Quite frankly, the Role/position between Jew and Gentile. AT this point in Jesus ministry we hear **nothing** about there "being no distinction between Jew and Greek", that was later done by Paul and others, and for a reason. There came to be no fleshly distinction **only** because Jews by nature did not accept Christ and the door had to be opened to the Gentiles until the full number was to be reached. Romans 11 is clear in the "Olive tree" illustration and the branches being lopped off.

The distinction in flesh was over, but the distinction in role/position never ended. I do contend that John 10:16 still holds a distinction between (jews, israel) and Gentiles (other sheep). Later what came to be a jew was spirtualized.

So was Jesus distinguishing Jewish and Gentile believers? Yes. Does this harm the JW view? No.